Thoughts on Pay to Win Games?

Sorry for the delay in answering this. I’ve been busy with work all night. I tried to answer more quickly but I’m not allowed on my phone very much at work. I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Okay, I’m going to make this part very clear. I did not tone police you. All I said was that I didn’t want to have an disagreement that didn’t follow along the points of the thread itself. I never once said you could not state your own opinion in any form of fashion. I run my threads very differently than you do when it comes to discussions. You are free to put down all of the facts behind your own opinions but you should not expect others to post the same way. We all respond in our own manors. It’s what makes us unique. My point in that comment was actually about myself not you! I don’t feel the need to quote every fact behind my response because that is how I talk. If I need to divulge that information so be it but when it’s not a requirement to do then I see no point in doing so. It’s a two way street when talking to other people but you shouldn’t expect them to discuss subjects just like you since that might not be there style of talking. This isn’t the first time I had qualms with you over subjects like this but I’m not going to let it slide. I’m standing my ground on how I feel when it comes to discussing subjects how I want to without people telling me to do so differently. I’m going to be frank you actually were the one who tone policed me instead.

I never said you didn’t answer my thread. I just said we were going over just a little point which wasn’t my main point. You did nothing wrong with answering. I was just stating that was not the only thing I had said is all. The fact that you are basically pushing me to state facts is the issue I have with this comment. I do not have to state anything to you if I do not feel like it. I can still have an opinion on a matter that does not follow your own opinion. Now, I will state my opinion because I’m done with trying to explain why I don’t have to respond to anything you’ve said if I don’t feel like it. It is my choice to discuss any topic with anyone but if you don’t respect that point then I most likely not going to respond back because there is no point. For all I know what I do actually say won’t satisfy you which then puts us back in an endless cycle again. This might not seem logical to you but that’s where the difference between us is. We discuss differently but I have always respected what you have said but I don’t like it when it seems one sided at points. So, here is my points on what you pointed out earlier. I will be mentioning the two games I said were the top contenders. Yes, there is a difference between pay to play and pay to win. Every game with an online store has this same process to a certain degree. I never disagreed with you on that. Please do remember you have not played these two games. I have played Wizard101 for years. I played WoW for quite a few years until I realized how much time and effort I was wasting with the game while still not getting far enough in. I have a lot of problems with WoW that deals with more than the money pit it can turn into just to advance in the game.

World of Warcraft - is $15.99 a month subscription which allows you to play up to the latest expansion pack. You have to purchase the new expansion pack to advance to the new levels. This is very normal with the bigger MMORPGs that are similar to WoW. Now, you can purchase level boosts if you feel like it. WoW has this thing about mounts which you can buy in store. The more special the mount the faster it is to get around the game. Speed is key in WoW because of the size of the world. The faster you move the easier it is to level up plus get to the locations you need. The only catch is that the mounts with the special speed are in store only. The ones sold in-game from npc’s are not nearly as fast plus it takes a long time to get the money for those mounts. Most of the time players resort to paying in-store mount-wise. This is just one of the few pay to win like parts this game has. Another is packs they would sell in-store that had higher gear which would help you get past dungeons they also came with other perks too. This was an option if you couldn’t get past certain parts because you weren’t strong enough plus your gear was not high enough because you happened to entered in a section where the power gap is a real pain. I stopped playing once I got engrossed in the game to care about what the game offered in-store at this point. Note, WoW community is one of the most toxic gaming community out there. You might not consider what I listed for this game as pay to win points but please remember I haven’t played this game in years but I still remember these parts for a reason. It’s up to you on what you take from what I said.

Wizard101 - This game has quite a few pay to win points but they don’t out way the pro’s of playing the game. Otherwise I would not still be playing this game. It’s another pay to play game. Although unlike WoW they have multiple different subscription types to choose from. So, this game is big on team work but you can solo if you decide to. It does mean you might end up paying more money though to do so. This is one of the only games I’m okay with pay to win perks because I rather do that then deal with other players at certain points. Especially since so players are actual children. One of theses pay to win perks is during battles you can pay for “henchmen” who can assist you in battle if you are struggling to win. I use this perk during the dungeons mostly just for the healing henchmen. They cost crowns which you have to pay for with actual money. This is not the currency used in game. Also, this is the same currency that can be used to pay for " “roads” in order to get into farther in the game if you prefer to not pay the subscription. You can not buy “roads” or “world entries” with the normal gold currency that you use in game. Same goes for gear too there is gear that can take you way farther into the game in the crowns store versus some of the actual in-game gear. It’s all basically up to how willing you are to dish out money to make it a smoother game play or a heavy grinding gameplay. Interesting fact even though they are big on team work there are no guild like setups in the game. There are other parts that have a pay to win like setup but these are the top ones that come to mind. Again, it is up to you on what you take from I said.

I mean I can list more MMO’s and MMORPG’s that have similar setups but these two games are the biggest contenders for having a pay to win like setup. It was my personal opinion when I said my earlier comment because I was thinking about all of the games I played that had in-game stores which sold those incentives to get farther in the game. I wasn’t trying to say you didn’t answer the question. You did answer but I also answered back explaining my points as well. I was just meaning my points are important too even if I don’t always go into elaborate explanations on why I say what I say. Yes, your personal opinion should come from factual points but it is your choice to point out the facts when you are in a certain situation. You need to remember what we both think on when it’s time to speak those facts are different based on how we are as individuals.

I completely understand this because I have played games similar ro Diablo 3 on the in-game currency part. This reminds me of LOTRO. You can get through the game without paying for extra but it’s there if you feel like using it. It’s actually better to make the one time purchase in that game because then it opens up more parts to help you along the way. Like for instance if you want to make more than the basic amount of characters which is two characters per account you need to make a purchases in order for that to happen. Though there is one thing I hate in that game because it kind of is a pay to win point which is a pain to deal with. In order to get a mount in game you have to buy a mount license purchase to get one. That is not including the price of the mount either. I forgot the exact name of the item but you have to have or you just use the mount system in place. Though it can be tough when you enter a new area. Certain routes won’t be connected.

Trust me, I have done this also. Though I usually pick the really long classes to get a better chance of getting more worth out of the game. I will use all of the free ways to get energy as much as I can. Once they are exhausted I try to wait it out. The only times I have resorted to paying for energy was when I either couldn’t stay up or running out of time to wait on the energy. In the beginning I did pay for energy but with help from others plus looking up information I started to make sure I used the free options first in the game. I will not pay for the premium perks from the milestone events at all. I don’t see the point for it even if it does get me closer to the goal on the story in a faster way. I rather wait out my time playing it the normal way. I’m like this with any game that has that type of setup in it.

I never disagreed with this part either. In my opinion it is up to the person who plays to game to pay how they see fit. Yes, mobile game companies are horrible about playing on people gaming addictions. I use to give in to the addictions when I was younger to the point I wasted so much money that I could of used for more important things instead. They will always play on peoples addictions because it makes them money. It’s really up to you on if you want to make the choice to indulge on the addiction or if you can resist it by playing with paying the extra incentives they push into your face every chance they get. It goes both ways on choices for the player and for the gaming company on how they precede though. I think at this point I have said all that I can to make my points clear plus to explain I was not trying to stop you from saying anything. I’m being as transparent on this subject as much as I can be.

That is great! Free perks are always the best! It sounds like a very interesting item for sure!

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Yep, although I didn’t get the character but I have another chance and I’m going to have to wait until 28 in May. Below is picture.

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Oh cool! At least you have another chance!

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This reminds me I need to look at my Star Wars Galaxy Heroes game. I’ve missed some logins since I’ve been busy.

This is quite an interesting topic, but I don’t know if I agree that MMORPGs are inherently play to win. They are pay to play, sure. However, putting unprecedented extra fees upon people to gain the full accessibility of the game is not something built into the genre.

It’s no secret that I regularly play FFXIV. I see that game as “seasonal”. Each season has its own independent win. You pay monthly for access to the world and then you can choose to access subsequent seasons if you so choose. However, refusing to pay does not diminish your access to the current season or put an artificial block on what you can do. You just finish at the win and then you can explore the world and continue to play other various aspects of the world. You’re not paying for another win, but rather a whole new storyline with new locations and characters. That does not hinder your ability to play the content you already unlocked.

The reason paying monthly is not the same as paying to win is that it puts everyone on equal footing. The biggest issue with pay to win is that it means that those with more money can get further ahead. Everyone else is stuck at a certain point. They cannot progress any further. However, if everyone is paying a certain amount a month, then it’s down to your time, skill and dedication to go forward.

Paying for advantages is stupid. That’s why I never got into WoW. I’m someone who wants to collect all the advantages and I think it’s a predatory thing to do. I don’t think it’s pay to win, though. At most, I’d say it’s “pay to win easier”. Or pay to be lazy.

The same is true with FFXIV. You can pay to go up to a certain level with a certain class or skip parts of the story. If you do, are you really winning, though? I mean, you’re the one missing out on the lore, storyline and satisfaction of slowly building up your character. It’s a trade-off you choose to make either because you’re lazy or you’re already experienced and levelling a new character. Then again, FFXIV is one of the more ethical MMORPGs out there in terms of paying for extra features. They don’t advertise them in game or thrust them upon you. The system is totally separate from the game itself, too. Plus, many of the things in the MogStation are items you missed that you could have gotten for free from previous events.

The only true pay to play games I am aware of are mobile games, to be honest – or those games where you need to unlock certain items from loot crates to continue. Like Clash of Clans. Basically, the games that spring upon artificial paywalls you weren’t expecting and grinding the game to a halt if you do not pay.

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I completely agree with you, I think another good example would be the Seven Deadly Sins mobile game, it’s a gacha so obviously there are paid elements but I hit a certain level then literally wouldn’t have been able to go on unless I started paying for things to help me grind up my characters basically.

While I have not played WoW or Wizard101 this does not invalidate my opinion I’ve done enough research there, many of the features WoW has, mirror those in FF14 but having a level boost, as I said earlier doesn’t make you a better player infact it frequently has caused issues. It’s not paying to win it’s more paying to be at a certain point in the game but you can’t buy knowledge and experience.

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I guess the big difference here for me is whether you can get to the same point with a slow grind or not. I think “pay to win easier” only becomes “pay to win” when you’re doing PvP content. Then, the people paying inherently have a huge advantage and rise the ranks, creating a social hierarchy in the PvP content.

When it comes to independent or cooperative content where you aren’t actively competing against others, “pay to win easier” just means it’s going to take you longer and more skill to get to the same point. For me, I see that as a win. In FFXIV, at least, the people who pay to unlock levels without learning their job slowly kinda suck :joy:

If you’re going to make paying to win easier a thing in PvP, you need to have some sort of ranking system in PvP content that puts top-level players in a league with other top-level players. It would be quite funny, though, because the people who paid to progress are going to be at a disadvantage compared to those who gained a level of job mastery

Okay in the essence of full transparancy since you have stated all of this publicly I now have to deal with it publicly so as not to confuse users. I have spoken to Shannii about this and she will be adding onto this statement when she has some time.

Regardless of any personal issues you have with me, what you said which I quoted earlier was indeed tone policing. You stated this thread is a friendly discussion and not a full on debate this is tone policing because the implication is that what I said comes in the way of or goes against a friendly discussion, which it didn’t, I just disagreed with you using logic and I believe I have said this to you before but if you don’t want people critiquing any of your opinions then simply don’t post them.

The rules are not on your side if you reject critisism, discussion or just anyone who disagrees with you just because of how you personally like to run discussions. Regardless of how you like to discuss things, your rights end where mine begin, it’s basically an informal fallacy but those aren’t against the rules. What is against the rules is tone policing which you have done.

This reply I’m responding to of yours currently is still tone policing me and asking me to respect your points. When Shannii made this forum it was because she didn’t respect peoples points and didn’t have a place to refute them, these are her words.

You also accused me of tone policing which just isn’t correct.

I have said all I need to say in regards to the actual discussion and pretty much all my points still stand. Plus Shannii’s points also state things I agree with so I can leave that discussion there.

I do not owe you or your points respect and niether does any user on this forum, you can run any discussion you want but the minute you start dictating how they are run, it becomes tone policing because you’re basically trying to stop people from responding in a way you deem “unfriendly” which isn’t fair nor relavent to the actual argument.

As for these personal qualms with me you mentioned, as a mod you are aware of the channels you need to use to deal with those, you certainly shouldn’t air them in public. If you have issues with the way I discuss things, the fact I always use fact and logic then this isn’t my problem. Yes, I am aware that other people don’t do this, no I don’t have an expectation for everybody to do that but I broke no rules in saying I think opinions and discussions should be based on fact and logic, when they aren’t this leads into misinformation and incorrect statements. Which I then have to rectify because this forum takes a stance against misinformation.

I have said all of this to you before and now I feel as though this has escalated far enough to the point this has now spilled out into the public. As a mod you should understand the rules more than anyone so I am severely disappointed.

Host whatever discussion you want on the forum but if you don’t like how someone disagrees with you or you feel the need to reinforce that people should be “friendly” or “respectful” this is tone policing and against the rules.

As I said, all of my points still stand and still disagree with yours, which is fine I don’t care about disagreeing with you, it isn’t personal to me, it seem to be personal to you which is unfortunate but regardless of personal feelings don’t put those into a public thread everyone can see, it’s irrelevant to the actual discussion. This is not me saying my personal feelings, it’s me reinforcing the rules of the forum we both work on.

If any users reading this have any questions they can PM me but other than that, the discussion won’t be shut down. Just please bare in mind that no matter how people disagree with you, if you tone police it breaks the rules.

Just an additional note to avoid confusion, asking someone to back up their opinion isn’t tone policing.

I’m not finishing this conversation with you on a public thread. You could of taken this whole response in private. What I said was me being transparent with you. I engaged in a conversation with you about the topic. I will answer you in the mod chat at this.

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Can we please just not? You’re freaking me out here.

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I already said I discussed this with Shannii and she agreed that a public statement would be needed but she didn’t have the time to fully make one, so she agreed I should make it and she’d come on later.


I’m not trying to fight with anyone on this. I’m sorry if I freaked you out.

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Look, I wasn’t trying to shut you down. You can talk about anything you want but I wasn’t trying to argue with on any of this. I was just trying to get my point across because it felt like you were saying my opinion didn’t matter because it was consider “personal”. I laid out my points on what I consider part of those games I mentioned as pay to win parts. Everyone’s opinion are important here which is why I got really upset. I didn’t tone police at all. This is were I’m ending this whole conversation. It got blown out of proportion over a small part. I was okay with you disagreeing with me because that was how you felt. That’s why I engaged in the parts of the conversation about how I felt. I had no problem with you stating your opinion. I’ve got a busy day ahead of me so I’m just going to end with this.

Yes, you did, this is getting serious

Multiple people I have spoken to have agreed with me that it is tone policing, we cannot blur this line.

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For the sake of the users and confusion around the rules we cannot be getting rules wrong

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I’m sorry if I did come off that way. It was not my intention to tone police.

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Although I did get the battle pass for Christmas last year, so I rather get the battle pass instead of pay to win

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